ALASON

Does not exist in USA

ALASON

Postby Steve Klein » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:07 pm

Hi Kurt, The Alasons are very interesting looking birds. They look alot like the Greek Wuta. Do you have any more information about them? I wonder how they compare with the Adana dewlap as far as flying and diving goes. Thanks. Steve Klein
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:43 pm

Hi Steve,
You are right the birds do look a lot like Wuta.
That has been a topic of great discussions in the past back home.
Over the years I had some inquiries from well known Wuta fanciers out of Greece asking if I know where their breed was being kept in Turkey.
I always looked around the region of Trabzon since the majority of Greek people during the Ottoman times lived there. There was no hint of the breed there. The second most populous region with Greeks obviously was the Aegean region and knowing they are very much into spinners I thought maybe some kind of a diving breed could be found there. No luck.
One day, walking the city of Adana, just like any pigeon man would half looking at where I am going half scanning the sky, I noticed a pair of blue birds go into a dive which is a very common thing there but this pair came down with a different style then the Adana divers.
So, I started asking questions.
Well, I have to say what I could gather is very minimal.
First of all these birds are very rare and are only kept by a hand full of old-timers who got them from their dads and their dads got them from their dads, etc.
Not only they don’t give these birds to anyone else in the city but also I couldn’t even get to visit the lofts.
Maybe because the pigeon thieves are a major problem in the city or maybe they are a very private bunch of people.
I had some discussions in the coffeehouse with the other fanciers who knew the man or were the relatives and when I mentioned of the Wuta breed, they had no idea what I was talking about.
I remember thinking, they just didn’t know any other breeds then Adana, Alason and a few other popular Turkish breeds (which are not popular at all in Adana but kept by some fanciers who came to the city from other regions).
I am sure they thought, I was talking hot air.
Any way, last few years on the online forums there have been discussions with the younger generation fanciers out of Adana and they seem to think the two breeds are rather similar but then again I have not ran into one that actually has seen a Wuta in real life.
So, the Greeks think these birds exist in Turkey because they heard that from their old-timers and I think so but the guys who keep it don’t think so.
Go figure.
Any way, the birds are very fast but not as fast as the top notch Adanas I saw there.
Then again I don’t know if the Alasons I saw were top notch.
They dive fast and some do a very wide spin during the dive.
I wouldn’t call it a spin though, it is so wide by the time they are down maybe they complete one single turn.
They do not have a leader diver like Adana and no chaser like the top teams following the leader with wing action.
I hope that answers your question.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Adana Man » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:34 am

Hello Steve and Kurt. Thats very interesting Kurt thanks. Would you say the Adana is the fastest diving pigeon? How would you compare the best Adana you have seen to the Peregrine speed wise?
Steve i see you also fly Adana in the US did you import them.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Steve Klein » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:34 pm

Kurt, Thanks for the information on the Alason. They are no doubt closely related to the wuta if not wutas themselves. If they have been in Turkey for any length of time they are already different than the wutas in Greece today. The old wutas gained altitude by flying in circles above the loft, gradually ascending to great heights. The wutas of today, in Greece have been crossed with Russian pigeons to make them fly straight up to great heights. I've talked to some wuta guys who say that they like the old style of flying better because, the way the new wutas fly, make them more vulnerable to hawks. They all dive pretty fast.
Your comment about the Adanas diving faster than the Alason reminded me that Ulrich Reber made the same comment in the 1980's . I've been flying wutas for about 25 years and it's hard to imagine anything diving faster. I can't wait to put the Adanas to the test.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:20 pm

Hi Steve,
Adana Man wrote:Would you say the Adana is the fastest diving pigeon?

For me there is no question about it.

Adana Man wrote:How would you compare the best Adana you have seen to the Peregrine speed wise?

This is a tricky question Steve.
It really depends on what the circumstances are.
On take off flight Adana will pass any day.
On a strait flight Adana again will pass.
On a dive that both birds start at the same location at the same time I think is a very close call since Adana will not be able to reach the heights Peregrine like to hang out.
So the dive will have to start at a much lower altitude where Adanas normally would go up to and it would not be advantageous to Peregrine.

Now, on a real situation where Peregrine starts it's dive 1500 feet or so while Adana is trying to gain altitude (which is when it's most vulnerable) Peregrine wins most of the time.
It really depends on when the Adana spots the falcon in my opinion.

You know Adana has been clocked about 289 kilometers per hour. That is about 180 miles per hour.
That is very impressive in my opinion.
However, the Peregrine is a weapon.
In this video it is mentioned to hit 242 MPH but that is not a wild bird chasing a wild prey.
I am certain it can pass 300 easily.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:24 pm

Steve Klein wrote:Your comment about the Adanas diving faster than the Alason reminded me that Ulrich Reber made the same comment in the 1980's . I've been flying wutas for about 25 years and it's hard to imagine anything diving faster. I can't wait to put the Adanas to the test.

Looks like a trip to Oregon is in my future Steve :mrgreen:
I would love to see the two breeds go head to head.

How have you been doing with them?
Did you get any babies out of them yet?
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:45 pm

Kurt Gürsu wrote:You know Adana has been clocked about 289 kilometers per hour. That is about 180 miles per hour.

This information is not true.
I just double checked my info and the birds were clocked at 180 kph not mph.
So, that puts it at about 112 mph.
Still pretty impressive but thought I should mention it.
A white male leader with blue eyes and a pied bluechek chaser with green eyes.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Adana Man » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:23 pm

Hello Kurt interesting posts. I would say my birds are diving way faster than 112mph. I had the peregrine chase 4 of my cocks last year and they were all dropping vertical even tho the pere was catching them there wasnt a lot in it and he had a head start. He didnt manage to catch any. I set my friend up with the Adana late last year and he is doing good with them and calls when he as good flights. He also keeps a male peregrine, when the Adana fly well i always ask do you think they were peregrine fast and the last time we spoke he said there wasnt a lot in it. I'm sure wild birds are probably going faster but i recon the adana have got to be good for a lot more than 112mph.

This is the peregrine himself. I watched him take a partridge before xmas very impressive bird the acceleration was unbelieveable!

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Re: ALASON

Postby Steve Klein » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:26 pm

I've been giving all of this alot of thought and just came up with more questions. There are a ton of variables. You would have to find a master breeder of Adana dewlaps who has the best birds from years of breeding in order to compare it's dive with anything else. That also goes for wutas or alasons. I am wondering if it is the training that makes these birds so fast or is it something that comes naturally for them. In Turkey, the Adanas are trained in cupboard lofts. I believe Kurt said this is a type of widowhood training. Would they dive as well from a roller style kit box? I trained wutas from a kit box and they did pretty well, but I often wondered that if I trained them like the Greeks do , would they dive better?
I had a friend who was constantly hoping to see a Peregrine falcon when flying his birds because he said it inspired them to fly and dive better. Yet another variable... falcons dive fast to eat and Adanas dive fast not to be eaten when placed in this situation. I guess that would put them both at the top of their game. If the peregrine catches the Adana then the peregrine is faster. If the Adana pulls away then you have one fast pigeon!
I've seen alot of MPH numbers and I don't understand how these can be accurate. Maybe we should strap speedometers to the birds to get an accurate reading or maybe we can present this challenge to the MythBusters on the Discovery channel.
I just got my Adanas last year and I am in the process of building up their numbers. Unfortunately,they are from a close family and I made a promise that I wouldn't cross other dewlaps into them, so it's been slow going. When I get enough to fly I have to decide how to train them, cupboard loft or kit box? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:48 pm

Adana Man wrote:I would say my birds are diving way faster than 112mph.

It is pretty impressive seeing a pigeon do that, huh?
I always thought some of the Adanas I have seen had speeds higher then that also.

Adana Man wrote:This is the peregrine himself. I watched him take a partridge before xmas very impressive bird the acceleration was unbelieveable!

I have to tell you, if I didn't keep pigeons I would get into the falconering.
Those guys are just mind blowing.
I think they are also very nice looking birds.
The head marking gives them a warrior look.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:32 pm

Steve Klein wrote:There are a ton of variables. You would have to find a master breeder of Adana dewlaps who has the best birds from years of breeding in order to compare it's dive with anything else.

I agree 100%. There is significant performance differences between different bloodlines.
There are some pretty famous breeders and a few years ago I tried to get a pair of white ones with lavender eyes from one of them.
I was not successful.
Then Uğur Büyükölmez found one of his relatives in Germany for me and I gave up when the price went to 1,500 Euros for each bird.
It would of cost me another 3K for the shipping, customs and the quarantine service.

Steve Klein wrote:I am wondering if it is the training that makes these birds so fast or is it something that comes naturally for them. In Turkey, the Adanas are trained in cupboard lofts. I believe Kurt said this is a type of widowhood training. Would they dive as well from a roller style kit box? I trained wutas from a kit box and they did pretty well, but I often wondered that if I trained them like the Greeks do , would they dive better?

Back home they say 50% bird 50% the breeder.
I don't know how true the percentages are but there is truth to the idea in my opinion.
I think, it goes for all performing birds in different degrees.
I have heard people flying Adanas out of kit boxes and portable lofts.
Birds do what they do but I am not sure if they are up to their potential in those settings.
According to the fanciers in Adana there is no substitution to the cupboards.
They also give the birds a lot more attention then I am used to, to be honest.
I have noticed some of the better fanciers fly their birds always at the same time and always wear the same color of outfits.
There are other variables also, they only let the birds breed once or twice. After that they are not allowed to feed babies.
Apparently this drops the performance.
I am told the performance peaks at certain times of the mating and laying eggs also.
What else??
I am writing these as it comes to my mind so they may not be organized thoughts.
One thing I hear all the time is the showing of the droppers.
There seem to be a technique to it which is pretty subtle and I have not been able to figure it out.
What I can see is some guys are called in to show the droppers when the birds are flown for competition.
Apparently their technique increases the speed.
Last thing I can remember is the make up of the team.
They are very careful selecting the leader and the chaser.
The better the chaser is the faster the leader is type of a deal.
The chasers that follow the leader with scissoring (diving with wing action like they are flying full speed going down) are seem to be preferred in some areas.


Steve Klein wrote:I had a friend who was constantly hoping to see a Peregrine falcon when flying his birds because he said it inspired them to fly and dive better. Yet another variable... falcons dive fast to eat and Adanas dive fast not to be eaten when placed in this situation. I guess that would put them both at the top of their game. If the peregrine catches the Adana then the peregrine is faster. If the Adana pulls away then you have one fast pigeon!

Not much to say on this one. Makes sense to me.

Steve Klein wrote:I've seen alot of MPH numbers and I don't understand how these can be accurate. Maybe we should strap speedometers to the birds to get an accurate reading or maybe we can present this challenge to the MythBusters on the Discovery channel.

I always think the pigeon guys are very similar to hunters and the fisherman, maybe even worst when it comes to telling stories.
I used this example because they were saying that the birds were clocked with a hand held radar similar to the ones the cops use.
It is the only time I have heard of a technical device being used.
Then again I am not sure how effective something that is built to measure the speed of a car when it is used on something that is as small as a pigeon.
One day I am sure it will catch the eye of some one like the MythBusters and we'll have our true answer.
However, I am sure there will still be arguments like that wasn't a good bird or something.
It's endless.

Steve Klein wrote:I just got my Adanas last year and I am in the process of building up their numbers. Unfortunately,they are from a close family and I made a promise that I wouldn't cross other dewlaps into them, so it's been slow going. When I get enough to fly I have to decide how to train them, cupboard loft or kit box? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Thanks.

Good luck with it Steve.
I think Mehmet Serçe has the same bloodline and he is flying out of cupboards.
He said it is very difficult to put together a team with out trainers though.
Maybe he can use Wutas?
Any way, since they are flown in twos or trees maybe you can try a team out of a cupboard and another out of a kitbox???
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Re: ALASON

Postby Steve Klein » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:06 pm

Thanks, Kurt for your response and great information. I'm trying to learn all I can about these birds. It's times like this when I miss the," words of wisdom" from Duane Terry. He knew an incredible amount about these birds. I like your suggestion of trying both the cupboard and kit box. I'll let you know how it works out.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Adana Man » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:21 am

Hello i dont use cupboards i use breeding boxes with wire floors the doors flip down so i can keep the birds locked in. The problem you will get with kit boxes is when the birds start to mature they will fight for the floor and corners. Adana are very relaxed birds and dont fight much once they have a box of there own, but without it it gets very nasty i found out the hard way with 1 bird having its ear ripped open and the other having his throat cut open. Ive had to learn the hard way with these birds working thing out for myself and reading bits of badly translated web pages. I seem to have them sussed now but they can still be a pain in the ass for no aparent reason. Your right about the performance levels Kurt they are much better when driving the hen to the nest but i do have a few birds that are always good and these are the birds that are now becoming my family.
I find the best birds drive the hardest not giving the hen a moments peace till she lays. The scissoring i dont like i like the straight diving with the dust trail like a plumb line. Dropper wise i use a white paint tin lid i tried the waving a white pigeon around and it does work but i just felt cruel on the bird and with plenty training i think the white lid is good enough. I got a mechanical dropper sent from a friend in Germany wich is also good but i broke 1 of the wings and i'm waiting on a replacement.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Steve Klein » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:24 pm

Thanks, Steve for your help. The cupboard boxes make sense to me now. I saw videos from Syria and Lebanon where the guys there fly only the cocks and use the hens as droppers. They flew other types of dewlaps but I was wondering if this method would work for adanas. There is also the way the Greeks fly their wutas. They have the birds in a loft and when they want to fly them, they pick out a few by tapping them with a stick. They then "herd" them out like chickens and with a swoop of the stick , they are airborne. When they are ready to drop the birds they herd the rest of the birds from the loft and they become the droppers.
As Kurt suggested, the cupboard method takes time and devotion. Right now the only time I have is after work and on weekends. I plan on trying all of the training methods to see which one works best.
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Re: ALASON

Postby Kurt Gürsu » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:08 pm

Steve Klein wrote:It's times like this when I miss the," words of wisdom" from Duane Terry.

Sooner or later we are going to get him back into business.
I am waiting for Mehmet Serçe to put together a decent team.
They live pretty close.
One visit and one good dive all it will take in my opinion :)
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